Breeding

I like the breeding in Siralim 2 a lot, but the new breeding in Siralim 3 is not so good. Creatures doesn´t become stronger and it takes lots of time to improve an creature.

Is it possible to change the breeding method? There are other players who think the same way like me.

actually its starts out pretty hard maybe, later you can (i think from lv50 i had drops) have tomes dropped that can improve base stats. effect is not nearly close to siralim 2 ofc, but man do you really want to just faceroll through all content in god-mode (that was siralim 2)
Here, your progress is limited by resources, once you ll crawl up to a bit higher levels it gets easier a lil.

for instance, it will take 16 summoned creatures to eventually get 1 +21 if you max level em in stables or in the field.
possibly you ll frequently change parts of team or whole teams, actually it can lead to amazing discoveries and group combinations
ive learned from 2 days of playing S3 much more then from weeks in S2 :stuck_out_tongue:
but yep its a bit hard i have to say. resources are supertight. can always grind gods though or just move with maxlevel party, or take freshlings. char continues to level and its your mage that gives you most power. well at least i have that feeling.

Yeah… When I have rebuild my ultimate team from Siralim 2 I´am nearly unbeatable. Then it is equal. :smiley:

The way the system currently works, the tomes do not carry over during breeding. The breeding system as it stands is terribly implemented imo. It’s forcing you to use a system that punishes you for using it. The only thing it does is allow you to continue leveling your creatures, while simultaneously wiping out any consumables and reducing the current level of your creature.

A lot of the new additions really seem overly restrictive. I’m not really interested in swapping my teams constantly, and I’m not sure why they’re trying to force me to. I got with a theme early on and I wanted to enjoy it. This is really frustrating me. In all honesty it all just seems designed to slow you down and force you to use all of the creatures. I don’t like them all. I’m not interested in using them. These are the same things that made me quit playing mmos. Regardless of the reasoning, it’s frustrating.

I simply don’t understand why they thought it was necessary. It’s not enjoyable in the least. It’s upsetting to see games get huge tedium injections that get labeled as some sort of enhancement.

If they can’t make this breeding system flatly profitable then they need to remove the level cap. The game’s advertised as not having one anyway, but all the creatures now have a softcap.

I don’t know. I don’t like to complain at all, but a lot these new changes just feel needlessly restrictive and punishing. It’s frustrating and disappointing.

Oh well, I guess zack stated in his blog that a lot of players wouldn’t like a lot of these changes. He was right. The game went from ‘grind how you want’ to pretty much ‘do things this way, or regret it’. Reading over this I don’t really like the tone of it, but I can’t think of any other way to express how I feel about the game. It’s everything I wanted from Siralim 2 finally realized, but I have to get kicked in the nuts every time I get back from an adventure. That’s just how I feel.

Dogamysprime: Zack has said that Tomes are NOT supposed to be lost while breeding. Have you tested this? There could be a bug if Tomes are currently being lost.

Personally, I quite enjoy the new breeding system, but I realize that it is a matter of personal taste.

[quote=“Michael, post:1, topic:4072”]I like the breeding in Siralim 2 a lot, but the new breeding in Siralim 3 is not so good. Creatures doesn´t become stronger and it takes lots of time to improve an creature.

Is it possible to change the breeding method? There are other players who think the same way like me.[/quote]

Yeah I’ve read otherwise that the tomes stay, but that doesn’t remove the other negatives from the system. I don’t really see how it can come down to personal taste, unless you really enjoy doing things that are completely pointless for the sake of just doing them, or going slower. I mean, if you’re really in to that then more power to you, but I can’t see how most people would be.

Can you explain what parts of the system you find enjoyable? What tangible benefits does it add?

At it’s core, Siralim is all about investing time/energy to make your creatures more powerful. Breeding is one (of many) systems where the player spends time to make the creatures more powerful.

I level up my creatures, then when they reach the peak of their power, I do some breeding (and some summoning). This gives me a different set of creatures, now I get to play around with these new creatures. I farm with these new creatures and level then up, … eventually they become more powerful than the previous generation, and I can push further into the Realms and defeat harder sigils. Then they reach the peak of their power and it is time for more breeding.

I personally find this gameplay loop to be enjoyable. I am perfectly willing to believe that there exist other players who don’t find this core gameplay loop enjoyable, but that is a matter of personal preference. Personally, I find that I play with a wider variety of teams than I would if there was no breeding (one generation my highest Heredity creature might be a Fallen Carnage and after breeding, I may end up with my highest Heredity creature as a different species, which leads to a somewhat different playstyle). Additionally, I enjoy the steady tangible progress of creatures becoming more powerful by gaining Heredity … Each creature peaks higher than it’s parents did, as the empire of Next slowly grows stronger and stronger.

Now obviously, I would be able beat Content more quickly (e.g. Beat the story boss, or beat Realm 100, or whatever my current goal is) if all of my creatures started with infinite Heredity instead of having to build up Heredity over time. But this is true of every system in the game. (I would also beat Content more quickly if I started with infinite resources or if my creatures always did infinite damage and one shot anything they hit.)

So the question is not whether building up Heredity over time shows me down (everything in the game is designed to give out ever increasing amounts of power slowly over time). The question is whether the core gameplay loop that it indices is fun. This is a question of personal preference, and I find that I do enjoy the core gameplay loop that arises naturally from building up Heredity.

[quote=“Noetherian, post:7, topic:4072”]At it’s core, Siralim is all about investing time/energy to make your creatures more powerful. Breeding is one (of many) systems where the player spends time to make the creatures more powerful.

I level up my creatures, then when they reach the peak of their power, I do some breeding (and some summoning). This gives me a different set of creatures, now I get to play around with these new creatures. I farm with these new creatures and level then up, … eventually they become more powerful than the previous generation, and I can push further into the Realms and defeat harder sigils. Then they reach the peak of their power and it is time for more breeding.

I personally find this gameplay loop to be enjoyable. I am perfectly willing to believe that there exist other players who don’t find this core gameplay loop enjoyable, but that is a matter of personal preference. Personally, I find that I play with a wider variety of teams than I would if there was no breeding (one generation my highest Heredity creature might be a Fallen Carnage and after breeding, I may end up with my highest Heredity creature as a different species, which leads to a somewhat different playstyle). Additionally, I enjoy the steady tangible progress of creatures becoming more powerful by gaining Heredity … Each creature peaks higher than it’s parents did, as the empire of Next slowly grows stronger and stronger.

Now obviously, I would be able beat Content more quickly (e.g. Beat the story boss, or beat Realm 100, or whatever my current goal is) if all of my creatures started with infinite Heredity instead of having to build up Heredity over time. But this is true of every system in the game. (I would also beat Content more quickly if I started with infinite resources or if my creatures always did infinite damage and one shot anything they hit.)

So the question is not whether building up Heredity over time shows me down (everything in the game is designed to give out ever increasing amounts of power slowly over time). The question is whether the core gameplay loop that it indices is fun. This is a question of personal preference, and I find that I do enjoy the core gameplay loop that arises naturally from building up Heredity.[/quote]

Yes, that’s all well and good, you enjoy what it adds for you. What does it add objectively? Outside of forcing a rather large section of the players to play the game in a way they’ve no wish to play, where’s the incentive? The system doesn’t seem to do anything but force you use breeding for the sole purpose of being able to move forward. It doesn’t ‘make your monsters stronger’, it does the opposite. It actually weakens them. It merely forces you invest time to simply move forward. And there’s little to no benefit to it.

This is probably all moot, as I’m sure they’re thinking of ways to make it more interesting and worth while moving forward. If the system has to stay then I’d like heredity to mean more. I’ve got faith that the system will improve moving forward. I’m just giving you my opinion. But I also don’t think adds anything at all right now but one more annoyance you have to deal with to move forward.

But, like I said, I trust dev. They’ve not let us down yet, and it could be that there already are other uses for heredity and I haven’t discovered them yet. Even if the system stays as it is, I’ll still keep playing. And it’s still a VERY good game. I’m enjoying it immensely. And, I’m not really the kind of person to ask a dev to sacrifice their vision for something I merely perceive to be a fault. I don’t have the whole picture. It would also be pointless, who the heck am I? That’s why I’ve been waiting for the dev to comment on this outside of what’s in the devblog. I just don’t see how this system adds anything. It’s merely frustrating.

I’m not trying to be directly confrontational, I’m just frustrated :P. The game’s almost perfect.

i think some incentive to heredity system apart from achievement points that increase your chances to get more rare items would be welcome.
so far system is extremely punitive at lower levels. really. like 50-140-210 its a hell. then it all becames much softer.
plus now you hatch for free. breeding cost is only 500/500. you get some eggs from realms with allready high heredity. you experiment a lot and discover amazing team combos by accident. but if you want a streamline with a given team never switching. well you can do it. just breed your stuff to supplement. i travelled quite a lot with maxxed team. just noticed some funny buisiness in stables like they get less xp maybe. so switched to some completely generic team with required artifacts. nether helps a lot by reducing need to breed by 16ish%
but agian some incentive would be amazing it can be a non-combat one maybe. resource/exp/rarity related. like every 50 heredity your creatures have +1% of getting core on kill, +1% of getting dbl exp +1% of getting dbl resources etc. that can go over 100% by multiplying. just a suggestion.
Making breeding required for a game like that is a good option i think. Since if you have your godly instakill and godly extract all then instakill teams you wont really ever see other options that are just right there to grab.

dogamusprime has good arguments. The first times it is okay but objectively it is just a barrier without greater meaning. It is sacrificing a creature to continue the game, that’s what it is.
Almost like some weird fremium game model ;D - I have to pay more coins so that I can play ;D

Well, I farm myself 10 or more cores of the same creature per class and summon them all in the stable. After I hit a level cap I use them as a sacrifice (I mean breeding) to increase the cap so that my base creature do not change. And if I want to change my creatures or breed new unexplored ones, mostly I have to start at heredity 0 >>> altogether pretty annoying

I vote for a synthesis between this system and the Siralim 2 gene strength:
for example if the creature has heredity of 1 it also gets

  • 0.75 more Base Health
  • 0.25 more Base Mana
  • 0.5 more Base Atk, Def, Int, Spd
    And as far as I know more Base stats means more stats increase per level up

I can also imagine that it is viable to get only one or two of these effects per breeding at random. It should also be paired with higher heredity-level-caps i. e. 0 > level 75, 1 > level 120 etc.
Therefore nobody can get op stats so easily (remember we have to train them near the cap to get full heredity).

However, for myself uttermost important is that:

  1. Breeding should be rewarding - even if it is only slightly
  2. Breeding should not be forced - at least not like in Dragon Quest Monsters or to increase your level cap
  3. One should naturally not feel the level cap, one should breed freely for exploring new trait synergies or to overcome a strong boss

Well, It is still early EA :slight_smile: and I have faith in the dev team, too :wink:

I suppose I will put in my 2 cents in this topic. Regarding heredity, I agree that it needs something more to it: currently it feels like quite a pointless roadblock. But if I had to say what annoys me the most in the whole game currently, it would be creature recipe repetitiveness.

A really big issue with the current breeding system. I don’t remember well how it was in Siralim 2, but I don’t recall that being even close to as annoying as it is in 3. Basically if you want to experiment and breed a lot to gain access to new creatures, the game punishes you for it badly. There are way, way too many recipes for creatures you get access to early via cores, even (seemingly) involving creatures of higher tiers. Not only that, because of “any creature” kind of recipes oftentimes you acquire the same creature you used in the breeding process.

For instance, yesterday I tried to breed for some unspecified creature that would help my magic team. After few tries got imp sacrificer and siren coercer, saw that they got a recipe containing both, decided to try it hoping for some ‘higher tier’ creature, only to end up with a simple Raven Acolite that I had like 15 cores of (and I probably used 1 or 2 on the way as well). Felt really bad.

So, how to fix this:
A. Rework the recipes - most likely the hardest to do, iirc Zack used some kind of algorithm to come up with recipes. As such, fixing them to not give you…well, crap would be quite a challenge. Alternative solution is likely required.

B. Make it so you can’t get creature just used in a recipe as a result - that would be a big step in the right direction. Basically all the recipes that go like:

‘Any creature X’ + 'Specific creature Y = ‘Specific creature X’

Shouldn’t allow the ‘Specific creature X’ to be used as first “ingredient”.

C. Make creature tiers visible everywhere - and that is including the ‘?’ 3rd window of the breeding interface. That way, the player will be able to see through bad recipes, when he sees something along the lines of “Tier D + Tier D = Tier E”.

D. Add additional marking for owned/new creatures - like a different colored “?” if the result is going to be a creature that you never had so far / isn’t in your stable / you don’t have it’s core.

[quote=“Gerthal, post:11, topic:4072”]I suppose I will put in my 2 cents in this topic. Regarding heredity, I agree that it needs something more to it: currently it feels like quite a pointless roadblock. But if I had to say what annoys me the most in the whole game currently, it would be creature recipe repetitiveness.

A really big issue with the current breeding system. I don’t remember well how it was in Siralim 2, but I don’t recall that being even close to as annoying as it is in 3. Basically if you want to experiment and breed a lot to gain access to new creatures, the game punishes you for it badly. There are way, way too many recipes for creatures you get access to early via cores, even (seemingly) involving creatures of higher tiers. Not only that, because of “any creature” kind of recipes oftentimes you acquire the same creature you used in the breeding process.

For instance, yesterday I tried to breed for some unspecified creature that would help my magic team. After few tries got imp sacrificer and siren coercer, saw that they got a recipe containing both, decided to try it hoping for some ‘higher tier’ creature, only to end up with a simple Raven Acolite that I had like 15 cores of (and I probably used 1 or 2 on the way as well). Felt really bad.

So, how to fix this:
A. Rework the recipes - most likely the hardest to do, iirc Zack used some kind of algorithm to come up with recipes. As such, fixing them to not give you…well, crap would be quite a challenge. Alternative solution is likely required.

B. Make it so you can’t get creature just used in a recipe as a result - that would be a big step in the right direction. Basically all the recipes that go like:

‘Any creature X’ + 'Specific creature Y = ‘Specific creature X’

Shouldn’t allow the ‘Specific creature X’ to be used as first “ingredient”.

C. Make creature tiers visible everywhere - and that is including the ‘?’ 3rd window of the breeding interface. That way, the player will be able to see through bad recipes, when he sees something along the lines of “Tier D + Tier D = Tier E”.

D. Add additional marking for owned/new creatures - like a different colored “?” if the result is going to be a creature that you never had so far / isn’t in your stable / you don’t have it’s core.[/quote]
I agree with you. Breeding mostly “traps” you into tiers 1-3. They constantly loop back into those 3 for nearly all types.
There’s only a handful of recipes that give you the tier 4 creatures, and a few highly specific others that will yield tier 5’s.

Additionally, many of the creatures are locked behind god emblem purchases (mostly the tier 4 & tier 5). Then you have the Itherian creatures. Both of those can’t be bred.

Overall, I found breeding to be nearly worthless. It’s a resource sink, and with new creature unlocks tied to realm level, it’s unnecessary. I could breed new creatures, but I won’t see them in the wild - leaving me to fight the same handful of creatures I’m already facing. The latest patch (v 0.1.12) made this a bit better, but it’s still tied to progress level. It’s faster and simply more efficient to move up floors than it is to try and breed a creature. Unless you want a specific creature, in which case you can just look up or ask how to obtain it.

EDIT: something must be done with mass summoning anyway. You want to have at least 2 of each creatures in the stable. You have, for example 300 available to summon, about 10 sec for each creature to find/summon. 1 hour. ok 5 sec 30 minutes, for 1 instance, still 1 hour for 2. And after breeding you ll want to resummon used up ones. Why? once you ll have 500 it will get better. Tbh i try to avoid summoning breeding as much as possible simply because i can spend whole day doing it gaining absolutely nothing :stuck_out_tongue: Like ok, its friday, after work ill spend 6 hours to summon my creatures ive been grinding resources on, weekend ill spend on breeding. Next week maybe i can actually play :stuck_out_tongue:

Dont get me wrong - i enjoy the game. I just see how some parts of the process can be lacking. You can easly leave by just boosting heredity of your alpha team as you ll find it, sometimes making changes as new creatures that boost your style appear. Its not mandatory to have every single creature available in the game in your stable :stuck_out_tongue:

Longer post

mostly i would be ok with breeding. its a resource sink - fine. i like the sense of discovery when breeding ? things
But there are a few things still concerning me, tied mostly with interface, im ok with it being a resource sink, im NOT ok with it being a timesink, i can gladly spend 5-10 minutes in the castle time to time doing all breeding needs/grinding runes/gems/artifacts when i can afford it/maybe doing an arena fight. But i dont want to spend 1-2 hours there every 10 hours of gameplay.

  1. IF its impossible or too hard to add an option to brazier to summon 1 instance of each creature its undertandable, but still, man, 13 pages of creatures, thats before latest patch with tons of unlocks, is it really necessary to summon one creature at a time

  2. Make an option to summon multiple creatures of same kind. IE when you scroll your summoning interface and choose a creature, there are currently options: yes/no, add summon 10/50. We ll be very happy.

  3. breeding: Currently if ill open option 2: show me what stuff i can summon based on recipes, its good 1-2 minutes to open results.
    Optimizing it may be a thing.
    But add an option: Show me what stuff i can breed based on recipes unlocked thats i havent bred yet. Just a list of new creatures.

Overally there are a few steps involved thats makes breeding overly complicated. Basically you can find your godly team in early tier 1 and never ever worry about breeding. I like breeding but spending hours on it instead of doing some realm/itherian stuff is not good.

  1. Ok you manually breed new creatures based on library. Now you run from brazier to stables over and over.

Tbh once content is mostly done breeding could have some huge revision:

  1. use cores for breeding as an option, involving autosummon, and extra cost - heck make those creatures be available from breeding menu just with transparent text or with colored, means they arent summoned, will be level 1 once you breed, and will incur a summoning charge as well
  2. When you pick a pedigree, currently only creatures with ??? unknown results are moved to the top of the list. Thats just wrong. Following those creatures should be creatures with know recipes!!! Because otherwise listing throught all the pages or using currently wonky ‘show me combinations’ option
  3. There are breeding chains. You cant breed something if you are lacking last components, i mean:
    to breed the ultimate XXX, you need to breed XX and YY with each other, both of them can be bred using your know combos, but both are lacking in the stable, good thing would be simplifying it, and if you have just base cores, and thats enough, do final breed, incurring all the costs.

  1. Finally heredity. The only point it may possibly serve is to make your creatuers of even level. Or to lock your creatures level if you, for some reason, want to see how your group of 1k lvl will work vs 3k/5k/10k. I mean its a lil pointless. Early game it encourages breeiding. Mid game you just find eggs in the wild. Then spam breed em to whatever to make em even heredity. Then breed your creatures with em once they are capped. Level in fact doesnt matter as you always can have nether creature carrying group of lv1s vs lv 1000 content.
    I see heredity purpose at earlier levels. It works very fine.
    Later its not bad/not good. IT gives no boons - creature stats we d rather use tomes, cuz it will wreck party chaining. But maybe some other bonuses, maybe insignificant idk. Just to make it not pointless. like +0,001% god favor gained for every 1k (claimed - means have it on creature AND also have level covering it) heredity (creature based, rounded down) - something like that, bonuses that wont affect gameplay much, but will make the system not so insignificant.

Earlier i tried to do breeding chains etc. Heh. You just find eggs, and line em up to some same level if you want. Why even try breed 0+0,3+3,9+9,21+21,45+45,93+93,189+189 when you can just get some 332 egg. Or use a trap gem on lv 2500 creature. And you ll only need so few of your 3, 9, 21, 45 heredity to line it up, especially if level of resulting creature matters not.

EDIT: again heredity isnt bad, it just gives you nothing and serves little purpose as you defeat early content. Locking your creatures level may be interesting but so far fighting overlevelled content i dont think it provides any bonuses, tbh i think there may be penalities rather (though maybe its just rng sometimes)