Class Defense Discrepancies

I’ve noticed that, since the class damage bonuses were removed and the damage formulas left up to the natural defense values, there are a number of discrepancies:


  • All Angels have equal defenses with a slight dip in Life Defense, which is their own class.

  • Diabolic Hordes have either equal defenses or take slight dips in Sorcery / Nature defense. Chaos is intended to be strong against Sorcery.

  • Paragons display no weaknesses to Nature whatsoever.

  • Shapeshifters have high Defense against whatever they mimick, but none have decreased defense against any class.

  • Dragons have at least 16-17 Defense against all classes and display no weaknesses.

  • Gargoyles have 16-17 Defense against all classes and display no weaknesses.

  • Storms have 17-18 Defenses against all classes and display no weaknesses.

  • Amaranth defenses are always within a point of each other.

  • Pit Wraith defenses are always within a point of each other.

  • Doom Fortresses all have defenses within a point of each other, except for the Necropolis, which takes a 2-point dip against Sorcery. Chaos is intended to be strong against Sorcery.

  • Skeleton Defenses are universally low, but Life Defense is invariably tied for highest, with the exception of Skeleton Triggerman, where it is one point lower.

  • Mummy defenses are invariably equal.

  • Wyverns are incredibly weak to Life and Death classes (~40% of their other defenses), but Chaos Defense is universally their highest. Wyverns are Sorcery class.

  • Smiths have high Sorcery and Nature defense, but their Chaos Defense is equal to the rest of their defenses.

  • Priests display no lowered Nature Defense. Priest of Radiance has higher Nature Defense than other defenses.

  • Spririts are invariably weaker to Chaos than Nature.


If there’s math under the hood working to correct some of these imbalances, then I’ll be tremendously relieved. If not, though, some serious corrections need to be applied to either the library or creature defenses, because we have new players coming in thinking that the weakness cycle of:

Life > Death > Chaos > Sorcery > Nature > Life

Actually means something, and as far as I’m able to see, half the creatures in the game don’t care about that at all.

All Defense data is drawn from Siralim 2.0.14, Windows 7 version.

Creatures aren’t balanced solely by defense - some have low attack and high defense, for example. You can read about this in-depth in this topic: https://forums.thylacinestudios.com/t/297

That’s actually really interesting - I’ve never read the old patch notes, so I’ll have to do that now in order to catch up. There’s a lot of redundant thought lines I was chewing on that you’ve already dealt with.

However, my concern isn’t that the creatures aren’t balanced (they actually are if you only have a brain). My concern is that you’re told, in the tutorial and in the library, that classes have low defenses against certain other classes, and the game math doesn’t back that up anymore. Snipping Hebron’s dialogue about that and removing the topic in the library about Creature Classes would solve that problem nicely.

Interesting link.

Is the part about different (hidden) growth rates still valid? I believe I know the formula for stat growth based on level (formula correctly predicts the stats of a level 1600 creature based on its level 1 stats) and it suggests that relative differences between stats remain the same without any hidden growth, e.g. if a creature has 40 health and 20 speed, it will also have twice as much health as speed at level 1000.
Another example: if a creature with 30 attack attacks a creature with 40 health and 15 defense, the attacked creature will take 37.5% health damage and die on the third hit. If the same fight occurs when both creatures are level 10000 the attacked creature will still take 37,5% damage each hit and die with the third hit.

The growth rates were normalized so that every creature gains 20% of their base stats for each level.