Dealing damage based on speed

The new patch might make for more fun abilities based on speed in the future, looking forward to it!

In the mean time, I have some thoughts and feedback I want to discussion around building for damage based on speed rather than attack, luck or hp.

First lets look at how to increase the amount of damage from the speed stat:

Nature mage: Can deal 62.5% of your speed stat as damage when attacking.
Other mages: Deals 25% of tour speed stat as damage when attacking.

From this, it is obvious that any build going all out for damage from speed must be a nature mage.

Now the party buffs: Are there any at all?

This leads to a certain problem concerning the new stat-based damage abilities. While attack, luck and hp can stack multiple sources of added / multiplicative bonus to their damage stat, speed can only rely on % damage abilities to do more damage. While not that bad when focusing on using normal attacks (1), this becomes very obvious with the stat-based abilities, as a build around attack or luck can boost their stats easily to double (luck even more) the amount you can get from speed, probably higher if you really try.

Looking at the damage dealt from Infection and Disease, they both deal 50% of speed and luck respectively. While this is fairly balanced concerning enemies applications of these buffs (since they are, for the most part, less well organized than player teams), the speed based Infection debuff has a lot lower damage potential than the luck based Disease debuff.

Some of the same problem arises with the Carrion Swarm ability, since it is fairly well balanced “out of the box” so to speak, but suffers from a lot lower damage potential. This is also a problem considering the bat is not available early on, when the skill would have its time to shine. I do see some cases where it could offer some nice effects, but those are usually better handled simply sticking more % damage on the creature instead.

The only uses I can see the Carrion Swarm ability fit, is if you go for a speed build without being a nature mage (huge nerf considering you probably have enough emblems to switch by the time the creature shows up), you want one of your fast support characters to deal some extra damage (id say there are still better options for this) or early game (creature not available).

I would not suggest buffing the % on the skills to balance them out for potential damage builds, as that would make them severely overpowered when encountering them as enemies.

One way to make them more useful is to make more team/row/column/specific creature type buffs apply to the speed stat. This suggestion is ofc without having any information on future plans regarding the speed stat or how this might impact the balance of the game. Although reading around here, it would seem that the pure attack builds are still preforming alot better than speed, or are at least a lot more popular among the “deep realm runners”.

(1) Has anyone tried using a speed attacker for deeper realms, I would assume speed builds do well against nethers with high defence if you stack only % damage, but got no setup to truly test this with. They would also be equally bad agains high hp targets, so not really that effective I would guess.

Hope the wall of text didnt scare people away :wink:

I have an Enclave Amaranth nether demon. It currently has 312203 speed at level 2191. Strangely it does not do 25% speed damage but rather 10% (31221 damage) (on a non glancing, non mortal blow). Enemy level is 280000 so I am quite sure the Amaranth does no attack based damage whatsoever.
As a nature mage the damage on a glancing blow is 89760 with 25 points in the perk (28.75% of speed). I did not get a normal hit, but I would assume it does 10%+37.5%=47.5% speed damage.

Hmm, that seems like a bug, as according to the damage formula, it should deal 25% of the speed stat as unmitigated damage, if it works as I understand it.

Do you have any attack-stat creature with comparable stats to run a test for how much you can hit for with a beefed up normal attack?

Max damage on a normal first hit for a speed user would for your amaranth be something like:
47.5%: 148300 * (1 + 2,4 + 2,5) = 875000 (1210000, with PWL ability at 55% hp)
62.5%: 195000 * (1 + 2,4 + 2,5) = 1150000 (1589000, with PWL ability at 55% hp)

Assuming you had the bonus damage of the Skeleton Triggerman ability and the Strength of the World ability on him. With a nether demon you could alse get the Pit Wrath Lord ability for an additional + 2.25 inside the multiplier (assuming one activation of Crawl Through Knives to get the Skeleton Triggerman ability activated in the first place).

How does this compare to your other damage sources? Im thinking attack wins out by a lot, mostly because you also ignore 50% of the enemies defence because of the royalty creature perk, leading to the defence ignore property of speed to be less important. Especially combined with the high amount of attack boosting sources.

I believe pure attack is not possible even when stacked. A level 280000 creatures with 15 starting defense has about 5.04 million defense. My strongest nether demon with emerald focus is level 2392 with 111008 attack (without artifact). The Enclave Amaranth could be stronger if I equipped it with an Angel’s Horor artifact (50% luck for attack which would give it roughly 30000 attack) but still nowhere near 2.5 million defense.

If it has 5 million defence, then it has something along the lines of 10 million hp, killing that with a max speed based demon would still take some time (with the amaranth as an example), but is doable. I guess any build that requires you to have more stats than the enemy stops working when you get deep enough. Making you rely on staying alive and chipping away at the enemy teams hp. Or, I guess you could just go for a lower realm level and kill stuff faster, idk.

Do you manage to kill stuff efficiently down there with any damage dealing builds at all? Cant imagine anything dealing those kind of numbers in damage very fast, lol.

Well, at least speed based damage seems to work out, even though the abilities based on speed seems to be lagging behind. ^^

I think its possible Kejal, its just slow.

I have a setup (and I know there are others) that works off of the “monsters will take increased damage” mechanic after a long fight with stacking attack multipliers every round. The easiest way I have found is Crade the Grave + Cold Blood. You could use the panda ability that lowers enemies defense and gives the cold blood monster attack as the artifact and after a few rounds he should be ready to kill everything in one shot.

I think it really depends on what you consider deep :wink:
Realm levels around 300 are quite doable with stats. Enemies are only level 14000-20000 with 300k-500k health). My Mouth of Hell “Redshirt” has 309354 health and can kill the enemy team with resurrect/Cradle pretty quickly especially with Calamity on a high attack creature. Deeper than that becomes increasingly slow with stats. My current infinite depth team relies on the doom/stun combo from Gravestorm/Electroheart to kill the enemy. It is likely that those 2 debuffs have to be changed next.

There are a few abilities that manipulate enemy stats and give them to your creatures, these should enable infinite depth and some measure of speed for stat based teams, but yeah, instant kill will basically always win out speed-wise here.