Lets talk stats

After Secret ingredient was changed, I would like to suggest changes to other traits that though less powerful are also able to allow infinite depth builds. Before some of you ask
[size=12pt]Why the hell would you do something like this???[/size]
here is the reasoning:
If such a thing as an infinite depth build exist in the game, the only builds that are seen as competitive are other infinite depth builds. Since there are a lot more builds that are not infinite depth but depend on stats those builds seem lackluster. So if there are no infinite depth builds, the number of viable builds increases.

So lets get to the traits I view as problematic:

Defensive traits:
Admire the Gods
Celestial Fortitude
Eye of the Storm
Long Live
Spiral Ward
Those defensive traits are the most problematic because they will completely shut down at least one line of damage to your creatures. My suggestion would be to either follow the model of Chrysaor’s Ambition and disable them when the damage exceeds certain thresholds or provide only damage reduction when they are triggered, for example:
Admire the Gods - When this creature takes damage, and the damage exceeds 30% of its Maximum Health, reduce the excess damage by 90%.
Eye of the Storm - While this creature is above 90% Health, your creatures’ Health cannot fall below 5%. This trait is ignored if the damage exceeds the creature’s maximum health.
Spiral Ward - This creature takes 95% reduced damage from spells

Offensive traits
Reaper traits
Deadly Instincts
Viscous Webs
Soul Swap
Everything’s Gone
These traits are not as bad as the defensive ones, since you have to live long enough to apply them. However they do suffer from the fact that the damage they do are not tied to your creatures stats. For example Equilibrium + Ultimatum will instantly bring a creature into range where it would die from Deadly Instincts.

Bleed does damage based on the target’s current health and is problematic for the same reason as above traits. Bleed could easily be the damage debuff based on speed (especially since creature’s which apply it seem to be high speed anyway).

Bleed is currently a double-edged sword, and has it’s place as such.
It won’t kill by itself, and works well at high HP levels. At low HP levels, it’s not a great debuff. I personally think this is fine as it’s best used in conjunction with other debuffs that are stat-based.

If it’s based on speed, I might as well use Burn or Poison or another debuff that is stat-based. The reason to use Bleed in your line-up is because it’s not stat-based (it’s opponent current HP based). Pilwiz is also the family that people think of when Bleed comes to mind, and they’re not exactly Speed-oriented creatures.

I also don’t think these traits are very problematic. Most only affect one creature, and when you’re limited to 10 traits (innate + artifact) you really don’t have room to trait your entire team with them and still arrive at a defensive combination PLUS kill conditions that allow for “infinite depth”. There’s some niche 3-creature teams out there or single-team nethers, but the game isn’t really balanced around those setups.

Enemy creatures will utilize both spells and attacks readily, plus other kill conditions like debuffs.

I’ve tried defensive setups as a Life Mage, and they simply don’t work, despite the large number of traits and perks. The longer a battle goes on, the more likely you are to lose.

Just a few of my thoughts: Eye of the storm is fine on it’s own, the problem is just how many traits can redirect damage combined with AI that doesn’t know how to circumvent this issue except by chance. Patriarchy needs to be looked at in regards to this by the way as it redirects every type of damage in the game.

I haven’t used bleed much but I don’t think there is anything wrong with a flat % damage debuff. 30% could maybe be too high, maybe not I don’t really know. This should be looked at in comparison with poison and burn: bleed should always deal slightly less damage than those two as long as the afflicter has an adequately high relevant stat.

I really hope we don’t get rid of all the ‘clever’ skills.

I agree, clever Trait combinations are one of the best parts about this game. I can understand wanting there to be a limit to how much you can break the system though.

If by ‘clever’ you mean broken, I hope you are wrong.

The game is based around stat increases so why level/breed your creatures at all if it will not increase your chance of success?

[quote=“Kejal, post:6, topic:2283”]If by ‘clever’ you mean broken, I hope you are wrong.

The game is based around stat increases so why level/breed your creatures at all if it will not increase your chance of success?[/quote]
I actually find a straight stat-based game pretty boring, tbh. I can go play Disgaea or Diablo 3 for that. Bigger numbers doesn’t always mean more rewarding or better.

I like Siralim because there’s more paths to victory than simply achieving higher numbers. Sure, Bleed may seem unbalanced at the start of a fight, but after 3 rounds, it’s almost useless. Now you have a trait or monster or artifact that nets you next to no gain. And unlike Poison or Burn, it triggers at the end of a turn rather than the start.

Because it is fun to find these kinds of builds, if you subtract too much of the fun, a game will get boring.

In a game like this where the player makes their own goals, there should always be an allusion of power and illusion of balance.

I would sooner stop playing this game if my goals eventually became ‘I’m going to keep on levelling and increasing stats so my team can stay on par with the difficulty scaling.’

I would much rather like it if when this reaches 1.0, there would be something like bi-monthly leagues, where 50 traits get re-written and there would intentionally be new OP meta builds to discover.

What is more boring having all builds revolve around the same 5 or 6 traits or having a plethora of different options of similar strength?

Since Diablo 3 got mentioned there was an “Admire the Gods” in this game, too. It was a rune for the wizard skill Energy Armor called “Force Armor”. What did it do?

Force Armor: Incoming attacks that would deal more than 35% of your maximum Life are reduced to deal 35% of your maximum Life instead.
What did players do? Stack as much health regen as possible while keepping health as low as possible. What did Blizzard do?
Force Armor: Incoming attacks that would deal more than 35% of your maximum Life are reduced to deal 35% of your maximum Life instead. The amount absorbed cannot exceed 100% of your maximum Life.

The reactions were the usual complaints and arguments (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/wizard/active/energy-armor) but in the long run it let too more diverse builds. Anyway we will see whether these traits get changed or not. Considering the Secret Ingredient change and less statless traits in general compared to S1, I am hopeful :wink:

Thank you for the suggestions! While I won’t be touching too many traits for the next few patches, I do plan to do one more balance pass on traits before the game is released and I will continue to monitor this thread for suggestions.

I think nothing shows the problem like builds, so here is a build illustrating why even the offensive traits are problematic:

Death Stare aka “I just want to click E”
In its normal form the whole enemy team will take 60% damage (since life is shared) pushing this past 100% (67% increase in damage) is easy with any vulnerability/increase damage traits like
Through the Gloom
Watcher/Devil traits
and so on
The enemy team will simply die as soon as your Sadism creature gets its turn. Ultimatum and Calamity can be used to similar effect but require a successful attack.

Builds using Defensive traits are easy to find here is just one that is very effective:
Mother Hen
Imling with Eye of the Storm
Creature with Patriarchy
Any spell/attack damage is applied to the Patriarchy creature. Give Patriarchy creature Bide or Fracture to have an offensive option.

Eye of the Storm and Spiral Ward + a creature with a Vigilance and Bide, like theluxx showed in his video, ignores stats. You can protect against status effects with the rest of the traits.