Nether Egg Math

Has anyone had a chance to play with nether egg activations much yet? My initial impression (from Kejal’s TIM and BOB) is that ideally, you want to put everything into 1 stat since its:

activation multiplier * gem levels

If you were to spread the activations around, the activation multiplier wouldn’t drop so much since there are diminishing returns (which I don’t know). Great! However, you’d also have to remove gems from that category which drops that stat significantly (and compounds with losing activations for even more stat loss).

The highest “total” stat potential will always be achieved through putting all activations and all gems into one stat. In other words, the total stat bonus of a monster with all HP or all Attack will be higher than that of a monster with half HP and Half attack.

It makes more sense to me that if activations have diminishing returns, gem quantity should as well, assuming the intent was to encourage spreading the stats around. Thoughts?

The orbs already have a sort of diminishing return, since every orb you apply will increase your total by a less % than the previous orb.

20 + 1, (1/20)*100=5%
30 + 1, (1/30)*100=3.3%

But I see your point, if you have alot of activations, that one orb in that stat will still be more than putting it in another stat with a smaller activation multiplier.

I don’t think a person should be totally forced to have to spread gems around. the game is still focused on players having lots of control on how they want to play. I spread mine around but others like to focus on just 1 stat. sure they will have a great 1 stat but all others are low so there is the trade off. I think its fine how it is so far. if a player wants to go make a 800base hp nether but have low base stats on all others, sure why not. it may have hp but its uses are limited. activation diminish returns are fine but gem diminish I wouldnt like.

My guess is that you underestimate the rate of diminishing on each activation. That being said, I absolutely tend to go very heavy on one Stat, putting a couple activations into another as a sort of crutch Stat to help my creature use his beef stat without too much trouble.
For example, I have a spider Occultist that I put 7 out of 10 activations into speed/luck, which makes sense given the creature’s abilities. However, the last three were put into health to make sure it didn’t get focused or one shot in higher realms.
It might not give me as many over all points as you’d think, (although I think it does actually give me more than focusing) but it keeps her from being a one turn glass canon that attacks, then is promptly one-shot.

I haven’t done enough tests yet to get exact numbers on the entire system, but from Kejal’s TIM and BOB nethers I extracted a little bit of data:

Brim Smith base stats:
40 HP
35 Attack
14 Speed
17 Luck

Setup:
2 Imbued Green Nether Orbs with 12 activations and 32 gems, 2 Brim Smith cores

TIM’s Orb:
2x5 Topaz
2x5 Ruby
3x7 Diamond
5x15 Emerald

BOB’s Orb:
2x5 Topaz
2x5 Ruby
8x22 Emerald

The resulting stats where:

TIM:
49 Health
179 Attack
36 Speed
39 Luck

BOB:
49 Health
302 Attack
36 Speed
39 Luck

From this I setup a simple spreadsheet to figure out the activation multipliers at the various levels in this example. Spreadsheet here to check math (or fill in more data): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JZAeCuTTvSOERaWU08mih9qts7bafoQ7hHwa_IMOxYk/edit?usp=sharing

At 8 activations, the level 10 attack gems were worth 12.13 attack each. At 5 activations, they were worth 9.6 each.
By allocating 3 activations and 7 gems into diamonds instead of attack, his brim smith lost 123 base attack (40.7%)
Another interesting bit, his brim smith only gained 9 hp from 2 activations and 5 gems. This would have been worth FAR more if he put it into attack.

I’d be willing to run some tests if people are interested, but in general the opportunity cost of allocating stats outside of the primary is really high.

More variables to consider:

[ul][li]Nether Orbs give a bonus and malus to different gem types, which further promotes 1 stat orbs and punishes spreading stats around. I’m not sure how large the impact is.[/li]
[li]I don’t know if different creatures have different multipliers for gems/activations[/li]
[li]In theory, having more hp or more speed/luck will help a monster survive/fill its role, but abilities, synergies and filling stat holes with artifacts ensure this is often not the case[/li]
[li]After the recent patch, many things scale off of only one stat[/li][/ul]

I believe the Kejal experiment was using Green orbs, and if memory serves me, Green orbs have a penalty to Red (Hit Points). If I am remembering correctly, that would explain a lot of why those 2 activations and 5 gems weren’t worth many HP.

One other thing that I haven’t tested is the following:
Do the Nether bonus stats depend on the creature’s base type? That is, does X activations with Y level-10 gems provides a flat bonus to base stats, or does it give a percentage bonus? (Basically, if I start with a low-attack monster and give him 5x15 Emerald, do I end up with significantly attack than TIM [Kejal] because the monster started with less attack than a Brim Smith)

Here is what I know so far (tested mainly with diamond activations since numbers are bigger).

Activation multipliers:
1 -> 1
2 -> 1.5
3 -> 2
4 -> 2.25
5 -> 2.5

Orb bonus/malus:
1.5 multiplier for strong stat (only gems and activations are multiplied so you have to invest in a stat to matter)
0.5 multiplier cor weak stat

Diamond gives the following XP bonuses for one gem:
1 -> 18%
2 -> 27%
3 -> 36%
4 -> 40.5%
5 -> 45%

What I do not know yet:

  • if gems scale lineary
  • if all stats get the same bonus with same activations/gems
  • whether base stat matters
  • if activation diminishing returns are the same for all stats

I will post the raw data of the 7 orbs I used for testing later when I am on PC.

If we were in the old build where % based abilities were king and stats don’t matter much, I’d recommend leveling a pure diamond nether. With the numbers you’re presenting, it should be possible for a nether to level far faster than a normal monster, at the cost of having only normal stats.

I may try that out just for fun actually, since it would scale extremely well with pills. I’ll name the xp monster pill popper and give him everything.

It should be achievable but you will need a 1000% multiplier to even match the leveling speed of a normal creature. Gems seem to scale lineary for diamond since the 352% multiplier of TIM fits nicely with the 100% + 18%27.

Assuming diminishing returns do not drop of after they reach 0.25 increase the best you could possibly achieve is:

1.5 * 5 * 40 * 18% = 5400% (meaning 55 times the xp of a normal nether)

This would need an imbued orb strong in diamond with 15 activations and 40 gems.

Slightly off topic but are pills retroactive?

Adding to the bunny trail, that is exactly what I was wondering, fate! I have a good deal of pills, but aren’t using them as I don’t want to use them on a leveled creature if it’s not retroactive, but haven’t planned out a new creature is want to use them on yet.

Yes, each pill increases a stat by 0.2*(current level - 1) + 1 or in other words

They increase the base stat not the current stat.

Awesome. I figured you had the answer! I’m too conservative with my loot, lol. By that I mean I’m a miser about rare items in games. Thank you for kicking a**

Here the orbs I used for testing:

Activations	1+	1-	1	1	5		Nether	54	27	13	18	18	18	19	18	18	45%
Gems		1	1	1	1	1		Normal	51	26	10	15	16	16	17	16	16	
Alcazar(Red)								3	1	3	3	2	2	2	2	2	
Activations	1	1-	2	1+	4		Nether	53	38	12	19	15	15	15	23	15	40.50%
Gems		1	2	1	1	1		Normal	51	36	8	15	12	12	12	20	12	
Abaddon Guard(Indigo)							2	2	4	4	3	3	3	3	3	
Activations	1	1	1+	2	4-		Nether	50	35	18	18	20	21	20	21	21	20.25%
Gems		5	3	1	1	1		Normal	38	28	14	14	17	18	17	18	18	
Red Storm(Black)							12	7	4	4	3	3	3	3	3		
Activations	1	2		3	4+		Nether	53	39	13	19	23	23	23	23	23	60.75%
Gems		10	3		1	1		Normal	28	28	13	19	18	18	18	18	18	
Amaranthine(Orange)							25	11	0	0	5	5	5	5	5		
Activations	4+		1	1	1		Nether	45	28	22	28	23	23	23	23	23	18%
Gems		2		3	2	1		Normal	28	28	13	19	18	18	18	18	18	
Amaranthine(Red)							17	0	9	9	5	5	5	5	5	
Activations	1		1		3		Nether	38	28	31	37	18	18	18	18	18	36%
Gems		4		6		1		Normal	28	28	13	19	18	18	18	18	18	
Amaranthine(Indigo)							10	0	18	18	0	0	0	0	0	
Activations	2		1		2		Nether	51	28	25	31	18	18	18	18	18	27%
Gems		6		4		1		Normal	28	28	13	19	18	18	18	18	18	
Amaranthine(Indigo)							23	0	12	12	0	0	0	0	0	

Gems and activations should be self-explanatory. The right part shows the stats of the nether compared to the normal creature as well as the difference. The percentage in the last column is the XP bonus of the nether compared to another nether.

Kejal, I’d like to take a moment and thank you for doing the gritty mathhammer mining to find out what the backbone of the game is.