Open Discussion: New Punishments

I don’t like how two of the punishments turned out: Claustrophobia and Overwhelming. For reference, these punishments currently have the following functionality:

Claustrophobia: reduces the size of realms, along with the number of objects that spawn in each realm.
Overwhelming: increases the size of realms, along with the number of objects that spawn in each realm.

These options don’t add much to the game, and the way realms generate with these punishments is very bad. Overwhelming realms often turn out to be one giant room, and Claustrophobia realms are so small that some objects don’t even have enough room to spawn. While I could tweak the realm generation code and fix the technical issues, I really don’t think they’re fun anyway. If you disagree, feel free to say so - nothing is set in stone yet.

I’ve come up with some ideas for new punishments and I’d like to hear your opinion on them. Keep in mind that the goal of punishments is to change the way players approach the game. They might imbalance the game slightly, but as long as the imbalance isn’t too extreme, fun trumps balance.

Here are my ideas for new punishments that would replace Claustrophobia and Overwhelming:

  1. Nostalgia: You cannot enter realms with more than 3 creatures in your party, nor can your enemies. This punishment is ignored in story boss battles.

Why is it cool? Because it would change the way players approach the game. Single-target effects and spells would be a lot more desirable, and AoE effects would still be useful without feeling mandatory to some players. In addition, tribal creatures would be less powerful so it might be more worthwhile to diversify your party. This would open up a ton of interesting new builds that otherwise wouldn’t work as well. In addition, spells that summon additional creatures would still work, so this might make spells like Animate Dead and Summon Chaos a lot more useful.

  1. Amnesia: At the start of every battle, creatures are placed on the Action Queue randomly in alternating order of enemy, ally, enemy, ally, and so on. This punishment can be overridden by effects that manipulate the Action Queue at the start of battle, such as the Nature perk ‘Raid’.

This punishment would be interesting because it makes the Speed stat a bit less desirable in favor of a more well-rounded party. It would also change the way battles feel - right now, a lot of players take one of two approaches: 1) Stack speed and try to go first in battle to wipe out a few enemies before they get a chance to attack, or 2) Stack survivability effects such as Shell/Invisibility in order to survive the first round of enemy attacks. With this punishment, battles would feel more like a traditional RPG.

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How do these new punishments sound? Fun? Boring? Imbalanced? Or maybe you’ve already thought of your own idea for a punishment. Regardless, I’d like to hear what you have to say!

First punishment isnt interesting for me, i like building 6 creature teams.

If u can improve second one and “ban” all spell gems, which manipulate with action queu, this will be brilliant challenging mode. Other way i see a lot of abuse like ur first creature haste other one with snowstorm and bla bla bla.

Those gems are already getting changed, so assume they won’t be there if these new punishments are released. :slight_smile:

I like the 3 creature team punishment a lot actually. It completely changes the way you build your team and it would add a lot of variety to the game.

I like the Claustropbia “perk”. I call it a perk, because it makes exploration of every realm at about the right level. You get 5-8 fights per level, some breakables, and then you move on to the next. If I want to grind, I can enable the endless monster punishment.

The standard size is simply too big. There’s too much travel between packs, and quest objects seem too disparate.
The Overwhelming is just that - way too overwhelming. Way too large.

So second punishment become my 100% choice (with shortsighted).

Coz now, u know, only 2 scenarios:

  1. U go first and enemy rarely can move, coz most time u oneshot them (no-brain spamming E, good for grinding, u can play a lot of arenas just press E, one after one);
  2. U go high lvl realms and u always at the bottom of queu, coz enemy have x10, x50 of ur speed.

Second scenario isnt good too, coz if u survive first turn of AI, u have 6 turns and can start manipulations without any interactions with AI, it’s like “solitaire”. Also, in second scenario u most time know a lot of information about AI - which creatures atleast and can try with first move gather info about artefact traits. If u fail in spellcasting, for example, u still have 5 turns to save situation. It’s all about solitaire.

I think ur goal is make the game with a lot of combinations and make it interesting and rewarding in researching it. Im pretty sure second punishment and shortsight will be my choice, coz it’s really interesting play every battle like mini-game, rather than spam E or die after first turn without any chances for respond.

I haven’t tried Claustrophobia, but I really like Overwhelming. I’ve been using it ever since I unlocked it.
Why I like it:
-Chests and things don’t spawn in front of narrow walkways, stopping me from being able to progress through a realm.
-The wide open room is actually kind of fun.
What could be changed about Overwhelming
-More monsters, like ten more would be amazing
-Increase the amount of things to collect for quests

Does it feel overwhelming to me? No, not at all, it could be bigger with more things to do, but I do find it fun and perfect the way it is right now.

Now on your new punishment ideas; I like them both. I might never use Nostalgia, but Amnesia seems great.
I would probably use it, it seems fun.

For new punishments—

  1. Parenting
    Would be a rewardless punishment that would stop the mage from leveling but allow creatures to continue to gain experience and levels.

  2. No idea what to name this
    Where we have 6 monsters to an enemy team, I think it would be a challenge to have more monsters show up and completely get myself wrecked by a team of 9 enemies.

  3. No idea what to name these ideas either
    Rewardless, sorta punishments that would change how much brimstone and crystal and stuff you’d get after a battle. Like, one for Less Granite in Battle, or even No Granite earned in battle and it would increase the amount of other stuff earned.

[quote=“Toxon, post:7, topic:2057”]1) Parenting
Would be a rewardless punishment that would stop the mage from leveling but allow creatures to continue to gain experience and levels.

  1. No idea what to name this
    Where we have 6 monsters to an enemy team, I think it would be a challenge to have more monsters show up and completely get myself wrecked by a team of 9 enemies.

  2. No idea what to name these ideas either
    Rewardless, sorta punishments that would change how much brimstone and crystal and stuff you’d get after a battle. Like, one for Less Granite in Battle, or even No Granite earned in battle and it would increase the amount of other stuff earned.[/quote]

I like 1 and 3. 1 would be nice because breeding becomes such a chore as your mage level gets up there. I also like to be able to control when new types of monsters appear, but mage level forces new ones to appear (I believe). 3 would be nice too, since I have about 140k essence, 40k granite, and I use all my brimstone/crystal on breeding and power on missions/building stuff. I would gladly give up essence for more brimstone and crystal.

[quote=“Toxon, post:7, topic:2057”]2) No idea what to name this
Where we have 6 monsters to an enemy team, I think it would be a challenge to have more monsters show up and completely get myself wrecked by a team of 9 enemies.

  1. No idea what to name these ideas either
    Rewardless, sorta punishments that would change how much brimstone and crystal and stuff you’d get after a battle. Like, one for Less Granite in Battle, or even No Granite earned in battle and it would increase the amount of other stuff earned.[/quote]

I love 2). Fighting enemy teams with more monsters than you should be the new “Overwhelming” cuz that 9vs6 does sounds overwhelming. The difficulty will be exponentially higher too since the chances of them getting good combo are much higher.
Problem is, this favors AOE even more than the game already does. Anyways, I really love this idea.

  1. is useful. This will help with resource imbalance issue. Lets face it, even after re-balancing them, they are still imbalance.

[quote=“Zack, post:1, topic:2057”]1) Nostalgia: You cannot enter realms with more than 3 creatures in your party, nor can your enemies. This punishment is ignored in story boss battles.

  1. Amnesia: At the start of every battle, creatures are placed on the Action Queue randomly in alternating order of enemy, ally, enemy, ally, and so on. This punishment can be overridden by effects that manipulate the Action Queue at the start of battle, such as the Nature perk ‘Raid’.

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How do these new punishments sound? Fun? Boring? Imbalanced? Or maybe you’ve already thought of your own idea for a punishment. Regardless, I’d like to hear what you have to say![/quote]

They both sound very interesting but 1) favors Nature mage. So strictly speaking, I think 1) is a little imbalanced. But I like them. I like your idea that punishments should change the way people play. Those 2 punishments you want gone don’t do much and they should be gone.

Some of my ideas are

  1. This is not a punishment but additional bonus to using punishments.
  • For each punishment, winning battles with monsters level not lower than your mage has a chance to drop unique reward. Having more than X(all?) punishments on also have a chance to grant another unique reward.
  1. Each enemy group comes with a random mage. The mages have random perks.

  2. Each battle are fought with 2 minor buff/debuff(stats +/-, etc) and 1 major buff/debuff(immune to class, attack, spell,etc) from sigils

  3. Every enemy monster is always equipped with Artifact with trait. Or make it 2 if you feel fancy. This will be really dangerous. And also make their artifacts indestructible.

I personally like the bigger and small realms, as I use them for different things - favour and resource farming, among other things. I can definitely see why you would want them changed, though.

Nostalgia seems really neat, and I think it’s a good idea, but I wonder if it would require a ton of balance. The Nature perk Lone Wolf, for instance, would be insane in Nostalgia (unless it was changed with that punishment to only give bonuses for less than 3 creatures instead of 6). Nostalgia would make single target spells much more useful, and I think anything that lets people make more creature builds is a positive thing. Definitely worth looking into.

Amnesia seems interesting, but I think it highlights one of the flaws of the game at the moment - the importance of Speed. I think Speed does too much right now, and even when trying to build without it, going first is just amazingly good. On top of that, it also affects To Hit, so in some sense, there’s really no reason NOT to take a ton of Speed on most builds. I think Amnesia could be neat, but I think making a balance pass on Speed might do more in the long run.

So I agree that suited is probably too useful currently.

From my perspective, a big part of the issue is that there isn’t enough opportunity cost (not enough of a trade off) for stacking speed.

Ideally, it seems like stacking speed to go first should require you to give up enough damage so as to make the fights last longer. So part of the issue might be that it is too easy to blow up enemies of you go first with high speed teams.

Obviously, one strategy that high speed teams use to capitalize on going first is snowstorm (or judgement) abuse. And we expect that will be toned down soon.

What other mechanisms are high speed teams using to win fights when they go first? Are these things that could be toned down a bit?

Something I’ve been running into a lot, actually, is that I need to keep stacking Speed to even complete fights. I’ve got a pretty solid team, in that I typically go first with two of my creatures, and those that don’t have some defenses built in to survive a first-wave assault. I don’t use Snowstorm, but I do use Tsunami that casts twice, which is a huge bonus to fights - not only does it do a ton of damage, but it also decreases Speed fairly significantly.

You are right, Noetherian, that Speed doesn’t have negative consequences for stacking. It makes a monster harder to hit, makes the monster hit easier, and lets them go first. With Speed affecting the turn order, I think it may be too powerful to also be included in the To Hit calculation.

I don’t want to derail this topic too much, though. I like the punishment system and I’m looking forward to having more to choose from.

I didn’t unlock Punishment yet.

I was looking forward Claustrophobia, because i feel the realms are too… boring ? Empty ? Mostly because the Movement to walk around is way too slow (i’d love to move as fast as in Siralim after unlock, without condition). So, a smaller realm with compacted stuff would be nice for me. However i didn’t try it yet.

I love Nostalgia, 3 monsters team would really change how i build my team and how i think the game.

Stalker: Monsters give more resources but run away from you like the treasure golem, the teleportation altar won’t let you advance unless you kill at least 3 monster packs.

Overwhelming version 2: Monsters move 2 spaces at a time. Gene strength of monsters increase per battle in the current realm.

I absolutely love overwhelming as it currently exists. I hate having to wind around the passageways that end up in the realms. Having one-giant-room means i can sweep back and forth and know that I’ve gotten everything without worrying about noticing a side passage that just happens to conceal the last quest item or the teleportation shrine.

Nostalgia sounds really cool. Would there be any benefit besides just changing things up? Like increasing the effect of Scholarly Stable (because you’re leveling fewer creatures)?

As for Amnesia and speed, I have a suggestion as to how to deal with that instead of a punishment-- A non-scaling stat that determines turn order. Call it Initiative.

Give every monster a fixed Initiative stat (like mana, no level up or gene strength bonuses), and at the start of combat, each monster on both sides rolls a random number in some range (1-100?) and adds their Initiative. The results determine turn order for that battle. That would be a major overhaul of a lot of systems, but it would address some of the concerns with the speed stat.

As for punishment ideas:

Tithe (or Offerings, or Poverty) - You do not gain resources other than energy after battles. Instead you gain Favor with the god of the realm based on the amount you would have gained.

Myopia - Terrain does not stay explored (you only ever see that which is in your sight radius). Perk - I’m not sure, maybe breakables give all resources?

YES YES YES

[quote=“Toxon, post:7, topic:2057”]1) Parenting
Would be a rewardless punishment that would stop the mage from leveling but allow creatures to continue to gain experience and levels.[/quote]

I also think this would be a great punishment.

Hoarder: Would cut the number of resources you get in half, but would increase the number of other items received by 50%

Miser: Opposite of Hoarder. Would receive 50% more resources, but only half of the items.

could add a few more of the sigil effects as punishments, example:

[ul][li]your creatures can’t have buffs[/li]
[li]enemies can’t have debuffs[/li]
[li]enemies have 25% chance to resurrect[/li][/ul]

some more suggestions

[ul][li]enemies always have multistrike and multicast[/li]
[li]enemies always have grace, ward, mend, and protect[/li]
[li]your creatures always have blight, bleed, and vulnerable[/li]
[li]your creatures start the battle with frozen[/li]
[li]fight 8 enemies instead of 6[/li]
[li]whenever a friendly creature gains stats, afflict it with 2 random debuffs[/li][/ul]

though it’s hard to make the punishment reward very meaningful beyond just more loot which eventually is also not very meaningful. Maybe roll up a bunch of punishments that counter common strategies such as healing and stat gain into one with an upside of “triple card drop rate” which IS meaningful late game (until you get them all).