Sigil scaling

Sigils scale level and gene strength independently. This means creatures with gene strength face much worth odds than creatures without (roughly quadratic though reduced by gene strength diminishing returns). I suggest changing sigils to only scale the level of enemy creatures and use the highest gene strength of your team. For example a team of Level 100 creatures with 50 gene strength would face level 700 creatures with 50 gene strength in level 8 sigils.

This was definitely an oversight on my part. Maybe enemies should spawn with a minimum of 10 Gene Strength or something like that. If I switch to using your highest creatures’ Gene Strength, players can still use a team of creatures with 0 Gene Strength to continue to exploit this issue.

I am not sure I understand what you mean? Why would having zero gene strength still be an exploit with level scaling only?
Scaling the enemy team based on level seems fair even if you use a team with 0 gene strength. Since enemies have the same level 1 stat as your team (base stat + gene strength) the percentual stat difference between a team with/without gene strength remain the same (when they have the same level):

Level 8 Sigil with 15 base stat:
When level 10 (enemy level 70): 42 vs 222 -> 529% more stat

Level 8 Sigil with 50 base stat:
When level 10 (enemy level 70): 140 vs 740 -> 529% more stat

If you think sigils will be too easy without gene strength scaling, you could increase the level scaling, but I do not believe you can scale both gene strength and level and still have the same difficulty for teams with or without gene strength.

It would be an exploit because, if sigils scale to the highest Gene Strength in your party and it happens to be 0, the Gene Strength multiplier for enemies will always be 0. For example, at difficulty level 10, the game would calculate 0 * 15, where 0 is your highest Gene Strength and 15 is the multiplier for that difficulty level. This completely removes one of the main factors that cause difficulty to be… difficult.

On the other hand, if enemies have a predefined minimum Gene Strength, it forces some amount of scaling and removes incentive to keep your creatures at 0 Gene Strength.

Hope I’m making sense and also not misunderstanding you!

I am not sure. I want sigils to not scale with gene strength at all.

I want the sum of the level 1 stats of creatures in your and the enemy team to be roughly equal (same gene strength) because then scaling by level will provide a linear difficulty increase.

Giving the enemy team a minimal amount of gene strength will not fix anything because then the new optimum is an amount of gene strength that does not increase that threshold.

If they don’t scale with gene strength at all, you can easily overpower them by increasing your gene strength.

If they scale based on your team’s highest gene strength, it removes an entire element of difficulty from sigils because it will always be better to fight with 0 gene strength on your team.

Am I still missing something? (Probably ;))

No you can not overpower them, the enemy should have the same gene strength as your team, not zero. Here a complete example across all levels of a sigil for a level 100 team (last column is stat advantage of the enemy team compared to yours)
Level 100, 15 stats at level 1 (zero gene strength)

1 100% 100 312 1 2 150% 150 462 1.480769231 3 200% 200 612 1.961538462 4 250% 250 762 2.442307692 5 300% 300 912 2.923076923 6 400% 400 1212 3.884615385 7 500% 500 1512 4.846153846 8 700% 700 2112 6.769230769 9 1000% 1000 3012 9.653846154 10 1500% 1500 4512 14.46153846
Level 100, 45 stats at level 1 (+500 gene strength)

1 100% 100 936 1 2 150% 150 1386 1.480769231 3 200% 200 1836 1.961538462 4 250% 250 2286 2.442307692 5 300% 300 2736 2.923076923 6 400% 400 3636 3.884615385 7 500% 500 4536 4.846153846 8 700% 700 6336 6.769230769 9 1000% 1000 9036 9.653846154 10 1500% 1500 13536 14.46153846
As you can see the relative stat advantage between zero gene strength and +500 gene strength remains the same.

Yes, but my concern is that players can purposely NOT use any gene strength at all, which would cause enemies to have 0 gene strength as well. That would be an exploit because it removes a whole element of difficulty from sigils.

Again, zero gene strength would not be an exploit if both teams have the same gene strength. Gene strength scaling should not be an element in the difficulty of sigils.

I do not know how to explain it any different than I already have. Here are some statements that in my opinion hold true under the current system (even with a token gene strength):

  1. If both gene strength scaling and level scaling is >1 enemy stats will scaling will be non-linear for high level sigils
  2. Having a default gene strength assigned to the enemy team the optimal difficulty for your team is a gene strength that does not increase that threshold.
  3. If any amount of gene strength increases enemy gene strength, fighting sigils with 0 gene strength is still optimal (even after your proposed change).

But it is currently.

Those statements are correct.

Zack is trying to balance based on gene strength scaling, Kejal is stating that gene strength scaling shouldn’t exist, at least as a difficulty mechanism for current sigil system.

Two different discussions, if that helps. :slight_smile:

Thanks, yes you are correct. I just don’t understand why sigils should become more difficult when you have more gene strength. Since you have perfect control over gene strength you will just keep a low gene strength team to do them.

Anyway I will see what Zack is up to and will provide feedback after I see if it fixes the issue.

For now, I’m going to move forward with implementing the minimum 10 Gene Strength idea I suggested earlier, as that needs to happen quickly for balance purposes. As for removing Gene Strength scaling altogether as you suggested, I would be interested in hearing other peoples’ opinions here as well!

I think Zack’s option is best. After all, loot becomes meaningless eventually, so a sigil’s main use is the experience it grants. You wouldn’t want to have a 0-10 GS “sigil team”, because then your main team wouldn’t get all that XP.

You are wrong about maximizing XP for your main team for two reasons:
a) High gene strength does not increase the XP you get from sigils only high levels do
b) if you breed your main team with any regularity your stable creatures will have vastly higher level than your main team meaning you would get more XP for your main team by using the low/zero gene strength stable team to do sigils

I have fought a level 10 minor sigil, monsters are level 55000ish with around 210mil gene strength.

I have won twice!

I was destroyed every other time :smiley:

Unfortunately I get more xp from level 100 000 monsters around realm level 620 with Hypersensitivity on.

I think a small experience increase given by enemies with gene strength would help as well. Not something large, as that could easily break the game, but something like (log(genestrength)*5) percent that would give a small incentive. That could make leveling up too fast ar very high realm levels, I’m unsure, but a +200M enemy (whch is unlikely to happen outside of creatures from when gene strength increases weren’t capped) giving 45% more experience isn’t likely to break too much.

I played some sigils after 0.9+ with different gene strengths and still believe sigil difficulty scaling is off. Giving enemies 10 gene strength has only shifted the optimal difficulty of sigils from a team without gene strength to a team with +10 gene strength. If you have less or more gene strength than that sigils become more difficult.

I think as a difficulty scaling mechanic this is counterintuitive because you would not expect sigils to become harder if you increase the (gene) strength of your team.
Linear level scaling (with enemies having same gene strength as your team) would preserve the difficulty across any gene strength value. If sigils are too easy you can increase level scaling to 1600% instead of 1500% at max level for example.