Tweak the Nightwing Gargoyle nerf

This was a nerf that came totally out of left field: nobody said anything about the ability, nor did anyone say it was too powerful. I heard it was due to stacking it being overpowered, which is understandable: you can take a group of six and get a ridiculous free bonus even on Realm 1, making farming effortless. The problem with this is that the nerf should have hit the ability to stack it (disable stacking of the ability, or make the stacked effect much smaller) rather than the base value.

What the nerf currently does is make the newbie startup time even longer and grindier, without really inhibiting your ability to sleep-farm with a team of six, as +540% (or more, if it’s actually -multiplicative-!) resources is still insane. You’ll either have to use two of your slots on them early on (which are slots you probably desperately need, especially as a new player, even on early realms) and grind 60 emblems, or just deal with the fact your ability to fund vital upgrades has been crippled.

I would suggest making the base value the same or slightly toned down (25%), and make added stacks add either 0% or 5-10%. You can still stack it, but it won’t make you get infinite resources from the first level, and it means weaker players don’t get massively hosed.

Sorry if this post seems kind of harsh! I totally agree with all of the other changes and nerfs in the patch (even topaz attunement!), but this one puzzled me, especially with how severe the nerf was. I agree that having 12x (or more) resource gain was silly, so I don’t think it should be reverted entirely, just tweaked a bit.

I’m going to let everyone play the new patch for a few days before making any drastic changes. This ability was in dire need of a nerf because it nearly tripled the amount of resources you could gain from battles - the fact that it stacks is just icing on the cake. The game just isn’t balanced around that, especially toward the beginning which is where your own concern rests anyway. It still gives you almost double resources from battle which is massive.

Fair enough. I mostly remember feeling like playing without one felt more like having a penalty, while playing with one felt like the normal rate. That may just be due to being somewhat “spoiled” by the ability as it stood. +90% is still pretty good, though, and at least where I was in the game, I was mostly set on all my resources (except essence due to essence having a significant moneysink, which isn’t a problem). I think there may arise an early-game granite bottleneck when everything requires granite and the only way to get higher granite gains is to spend granite on granite enchants. Those memories are a bit foggy, though, and I’m currently in the process of focusing on other games at this time. So it’s possible my concerns are rather off base :stuck_out_tongue:

I’ll wait to see the opinions of others, especially players playing on new savefiles (especially inexperienced players). My opinions are primarily from memory of not having a lot of granite to do things until I picked up the monster, though I admit I’m reacting as if the ability was entirely removed, rather than toned down. I also think I have a sort of sense that I should be able to afford everything as they come, when it’s likely you intended it to be more of a choice, or a goal to work towards; I feel that the low level requirements on tier upgrades past the first few may give an impression of “Wow, that level’s so low, I should be able to afford this easily by now” even if that’s not the intent.

I somewhat agree with jamosup’s view of it. Even switching out one of the six choices to have a unit that helps generate resources and do little else, is still a pretty big sacrifice. All the change did was make me consider dropping the unit completely and just sucking up the extra time it will take to gather resources. Not to mention limiting your team to one that doesn’t suffer many deaths, and probably has resurrection options.

I think it’s a lot more trouble than it’s worth having a fully separate team for gathering, and one for fighting. Especially for people playing the game whose time is fairly limited. Perhaps a different way of looking at it altogether might be better. The beginning of the game is the only time you’re short of resources, and it can get a bit repetitious with the fairly steep difficulty curve. I haven’t started from that early since the patch, and I know there were a few changes, but previously it took quite a while before it was worth going past level 5. You’d just do the same 5 or so levels over and over without much of a sense of progress.

I said this over in the shoutbox, but I’m going to voice this here, too: the problem isn’t so much the Ransack nerf itself, it’s that it makes an already slow progression curve even slower. Yeah, triple resources might be a little excessive, but it’s the only thing that makes the granite bottlenecks for creature tiers bearable. And, frankly, Arqane has a point, too. The people that need the gargoyle most are the new players trying to overcome the granite requirements for construction rituals, and they’re the ones that can’t fit more than one of these guys in their team without losing the ability to delve past the first few realms.

I just want to note that for comparison, my first character used a gargoyle as soon as he could get one, and he -still- couldn’t keep up with the resource requirements for tier unlocks. I had to use extra emblems from a Nexus Amaranth to keep buying granite satchels, sometimes 20 at a time, to keep up. As someone who thought that the creature tier progression was already too slow, this was a very unwelcome change.

As someone who has used the gargoyle only for the sale of leveling it to 50 like I do all of my creatures, I personally don’t share this problem at all. But perhaps it’s perspective, as jamosup had pondered? My goal and mindset want that I should be able to afford everything as soon as it came out. Construction was merely something done as it was convenient. When I was low on granite, which yes that happened often, I focused on tasks for new nether creatures (whether I was specifically making one or simply planning for a future creature), and when that wasn’t a large focal point, I worked on training my creatures and tailoring teams to familiarize myself with abilities and find good synergies. I found that the resources needed for Construction came without much trouble of mind. I think the problem might actually be in the need to complete everything immediately instead of enjoying the process. Perhaps this creature cultivated a rather “get now fast” mentality.

I think what would relieve a lot of the pain of that would be to redirect a few early costs to brimstone and crystal rather than granite - almost everything you need to get yourself off the ground costs granite, be it construction, or enchanting artifacts so it doesn’t take ten hits to kill monsters on realm level 1. Once you have the time to do other stuff like focus on nethers / gem enchanting, then taking a break from unlocking new upgrades feels a lot better. Possibly making enchantment only cost brimstone, crystal, and power would make things less difficult early on. Having a decent artifact is very important, even on realm 1. And Brimstone and Crystal need a serious dumping ground, anyway, it’s rather annoying to have 1000K of both and 0 essence. :stuck_out_tongue:

Edit: The main concern I have isn’t with tiers; waiting for those is generally fine, and even tier 1/2 have some great early game creatures. It’s more the super-early game when you’re trying to build things like the enchanter, blacksmith, etc., along with making simple early-game artifacts. My memories of that are very faint, though; has anyone played a file from level 1 recently?

The gargoyle needed a nerf, almost tripling progression (granite) is a no-brainer when it comes to sacreficing one ability slot. It is still powerful as well, just no so big a deal as it was previously.

What is discussed here about progression speed feeling too slow without the old ransack ability is more of a general cost-issue (granite), not so much the gargoyle itself. Removing granite as a cost for enchanting and instead make it more expensive in terms of brimstone and crystal is one change that could make it a more smooth experience playing with a new save.

I find this statement to be rather patronizing.

People enjoy games in different ways. The “enjoy the journey!” chant that gets brought up for this and the people that want help with secret hunting is not helpful. If we didn’t enjoy the game on some level, we wouldn’t be playing it at all. In this case, the point is that for some of us, the game doesn’t really reach its peak until we get all the creatures unlocked and can decide what end-game parties we want to make. There is nothing inferior with that mentality.

Have any of you started a new game and tested this change for yourself? I have, and without even purchasing a Nightwing Gargoyle I’ve had no problem accumulating enough granite to purchase all the early upgrades (blacksmith, enchanter, gem temple, etc). No one used to enchant their artifacts with resource bonuses - maybe now is a good time to start :slight_smile:

It’s intentional that you have to work toward unlocking the creatures and grind a bit for those last few tiers. What’s the point of a resource system if you can buy everything you want immediately anyway?

I went from beginning to fully constructed not even creating a single Nightwing Gargoyle, and I still had more than enough out of every resource oher than essence, which gets dumped into gems constantly. I think the nerf is completely justified and should push players towards enchants that increase resource rewards.

I do also think we need resource dumps for resourses other than essense and power.

The only problem with the “enchant your artifacts with bonuses” argument is: you need resources (including the ever-precious granite) to do so! (And the enchanter purchased as well, though I don’t remember the price) I remember seeing it as a tip when I was early on in the game, but feeling frustrated when I realized I couldn’t afford to even put enough enchants to make a difference, and maybe not any at all.

Personally, as I said, I don’t mind the last tiers taking a while. There’s a lot of options even with only 5-10 tiers unlocked, and the earliest tiers aren’t very pricey nor have long rituals. Getting all of your vitally important castle implements up and running, however, is what I consider the bare minimum for getting the game started, barring maybe the arena and nether-related addons. I’m going to play a file from the start myself again, to get a good feel for how it is, though. It’ll help to give some fresh impressions on costs and gameplay speed.

Edit: I can tell the karma buttons are being used as an agree/disagree button here. I don’t think that’s the best idea, as it could form some bad blood in the community over this topic, considering how polarizing it seems to be. This might be considered backseat modding, though - let me know if I’m wrong.

It’s actually just one person who is smiting everyone to death. I can see who they are.

I think I’m going to remove the smite option, since I definitely agree that it doesn’t add much to any discussion.

I question what the point of the construction rituals having level requirements is, if we’re only intended to get them much, much later.

But yes, I’m playing a new game while I’m commenting about this. My level 35 mage doesn’t even have a single mat for the granite enchant yet, so that’s not an option. Even if I did have them, the 3k granite needed to do the single enchant is a hefty chunk at that point in the game.

[quote=“Zack, post:13, topic:882”]It’s actually just one person who is smiting everyone to death. I can see who they are.

I think I’m going to remove the smite option, since I definitely agree that it doesn’t add much to any discussion.[/quote]

I was wondering if somebody was just cross-eyed and was secretly harboring a massive guilt complex about their inaccurate clicking. Admittedly, my imagination has always been more entertaining than real life.

As I mentioned, it’s really the beginning progression that was kind of bugging me. And I haven’t started over since the changes, so maybe it’s fine. I’ve been a strategy/RPG gamer for a long time, so I’m quite used to long periods of time before noticing progression.

However, it’s really the odd progression that there was. You’d get a lot of new things up until about L20. You fill out your max creatures, royalty points come pretty quickly, and the skill levels are low enough that you see a lot of progression in those. Then there was a pretty substantial bump where you’d have to run the L1-5 circuit about 10 times. Then it started accelerating again, close to what it was at the beginning. You have plenty of resources, can start to push further in the dungeon, and have a few choices with your upgrades. It’s that middle bump, that comes pretty early in the game, that really threw me off. The gargoyle’s ability was positioned very well for that, as that was about the time you could afford one.

So yeah, I’d say it doesn’t all have to be on the gargoyle’s ability. I’d actually probably prefer a slightly lower difficulty curve, plus goals with noticeable rewards at certain dungeon depths to really challenge you. If the monster’s scaled just slightly slower, and there was a milestone at L10… maybe a special boss-type fight with a nether orb reward, then that would nicely break up the weird progression-slowing bump where it’s best to just repeat the same few levels quite a few times.

I’m used to forums where likes/dislikes are used per-post to express agreement/disagreement. So, he may be referring to me, though I got at least one smite from this thread so it wasn’t just one person. Either way, I agree that it’s probably best the option is just removed entirely.

Back on topic: It was suggested in the shoutbox that perhaps the level requirements should simply be removed from the creature tier construction rituals to take away the expectation that you should have them on a given level. I agree that may help, though I still think progression is too slow for my tastes.

I think at this point, I’m mostly convinced the only change necessary is to make enchanting cost Brimstone and Crystal instead of essence and granite. Unless there’s a significant change required here, this would solve almost all of the problems I can think of (you don’t need to spend a lot of granite to get granite enchants going, or effective artifacts), and give at least a bit of a dumping grounds for how much extra you have laying around at almost all times. You still do need to find the rare materials in order to enchant your artifacts with resource bonuses, though; maybe there should be a freebie gained when you unlock the enchanter, or given by an NPC giving a tip about resource-bonus enchants? That way even people with foul luck will get something to work with.

Since this has to do with the general topic of resources at this point, I may as well bring this up. Instead of fighting through the levels to gather the resources, which I’m guessing is the preferred way it was developed, there’s a much more efficient way. In that same time when brimstone and crystal aren’t that useful, and there’s a huge granite crush, it’s much faster to gamble with the dwarves. With about 5000-6000 each of brimstone and crystal, I got 21 emblems in less than 10 minutes. Which is pretty average if you’re constantly betting everything and putting it on 7 (which is a 1 in 6 chance). That equates to about 21k-42k granite if I exchange for that. That’s not to mention if I get really exploitative and keep funneling the resources back into gambling. Don’t think that’s the way you want us to build up resources… I think the old Nightwing was better ;D.

I would recommend putting a limit on how many times you can gamble with the dwarves each time you come back to the castle. It’s not much of a problem in the dungeon, since you only get 1 try per level at most.

Just an update since I have now restarted since the Nightwing nerf. I got an early Diabolic Nemesis (gives Link to Diabolic hordes), and with the Diabolic Intruder now for sale for Emblems (better loot in chests), I figured I’d go with a horde setup. The better loot does seem to be working, as I had about 15 Legendary materials by L50 without even using Sigils. But the resource crunch is quite bad, especially with power.

The thing is, I think the worst thing about the resource crunch is that you limit the useful units near the beginning (first 5-10 hours of the game) to just a few elite units. If you’re not using a Fallen Carnage, Brim Smith, or Occultist linked with a Nightwing or two, you’re going to be going quite slow for a while. The units balance out a lot better once you get to nethers, but it seems a waste that there are so many creatures in the game, and not much choice at the beginning. If you’re saving up for your first nether, you can’t really keep up with your artifacts, and you start to bog down to the point that even floor 2-4 can be tough for a while. I could throw a Fallen Carnage in there with a good artifact, and summon a couple Nightwings to make it much faster, but I don’t want to have to use the same strategy over and over.

I’d recommend making the first nether a bit easier to get to, or maybe even another stage between normal units and nethers. Or at least something that changes the strategy from making one superpowered attacker, where the rest of the units don’t matter much.